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( SCENE: Shoebox apartment.)
ME
(Arriving)
ANNE
(Appearing out of nowhere reading a book . . . Taking off reading glasses)
Hey.
ME
You look scholarly today. What you been up to?
ANNE
Catching up on reading.
ME
That's good. What you been reading?
ANNE
Oh, this and that.
ME
Like what? Books? Magazines? Newspapers?
ANNE
Books mostly. I've been reading some online articles too.
ME
Uh-huh.
ANNE
I, uh, came across your blog.
ME
Which one?
ANNE
First your blog-blog. Then I saw your LiveJournal.
ME
Mm-hm.
ANNE
. . .
ME
What?
ANNE
Some of the things I read were, um, could be considered, uh, controversial.
ME
Oh, Lord. You read the racism posts didn't you?
ANNE
It was kinda hard not to. You write about it a lot.
ME
Uh-huh.
ANNE
I'm – why didn't you say anything?
ME
About what?
ANNE
What you were writing about.
ME
Guess it never came up.
ANNE
You could've mentioned it at some point.
ME
Uh, there's never really a good time to talk about that kinda stuff.
ANNE
(Bringing out coffee or tea from nowhere . . . Arranging on table nearby . . . Pouring two cups)
OK, fine. It's come up now, so let's talk about it now.
ME
. . .
ANNE
Alright, so . . .
ME
So.
ANNE
I read your blogs.
ME
Uh, uh-huh.
ANNE
You say a lot of interesting things about race and – what was the word? - intersectionality, y'know, your experiences being both Black and female.
ME
Mm-hm.
ANNE
I read just about everything.
ME
Uh-huh.
ANNE
This would be a lot easier if you actually said something.
ME
I don't have anything to say.
ANNE
(Pouring more coffee)
Well . . . I beg to differ. You put a lot of time into writing some powerful, eloquent pieces about how you think and feel about racism. I think you have quite a lot to say and I would like to hear it. I'd like to discuss that with you.
ME
(Staring at my cup)
It's not exactly a topic for polite conversation, Anne.
ANNE
No, but I'd hope we are beyond polite conversation. I mean, you made me piss myself laughing so that has to count for something.
ME
(Chuckling)
OK. What'd you wanna discuss?
ANNE
I read everything you wrote. More than once, actually.
ME
(Wary)
Uh-huh.
ANNE
You have some pretty . . . sharp criticisms of White people.
ME
(Tense)
Uh-huh.
ANNE
No, no, it's not – I know where you think I'm going with this, but that's not what I – I'm not – I'm not going to say what you expect me to say.
ME
(Skeptical)
OK . . .
ANNE
Well . . . I'm reading what you wrote. Over and over again, and it's like . . . I dunno. You're being really honest about the things you see and how people treat you as a Black woman and everything. But at the same time, it feels like you're hiding what's really happening. You're not getting at the root of what really bothers you about us – White people, I mean. You talk around it, you hint at it, you slip it under the radar, but you never just come out and say it.
ME
Is that the thrust of your critique, professor?
ANNE
I wouldn't call it a critique, but – yeah, that's my main issue with it. A lot more people would be on board with you if you just said what it was don't you think?
ME
Maybe.
ANNE
Seriously, what is it? What are you not saying?
ME
(Thinking)
If I had to say it in a few words . . .
ANNE
Mm-hm.
ME
If I had to say it in a few words, I would say that you don't see us as people. I don't mean you don't see as equal to you. I mean literally not human. I don't know what you think we are – animals, aliens, spirits – whatever it is, it ain't human. I guess it's no accident y'all used to call us spooks. It's like . . . part of the physics of the world you live in. One plus one is two. What goes up must come down. And Black people aren't people.
ANNE
. . . I don't feel – I don't think that way.
ME
Of course you don't. That's what's fucked up about it. You don't have to. You just do it.
ANNE
I don't know what you're talking about.
ME
It's like our thoughts, our feelings, our experiences . . . the human things about us – they just don't register. Like it's not real. You only notice how we function in your life. We're only what you can use us for, not people with our own talents, our own dreams, virtues and vices and joys and sorrows and all those other things that make a person a person. Even when I'm saying it to you the way I say it now, it doesn't sink in. You ignore it, you dismiss it, you deny it, you do everything but accept it. And when you're forced to see us, you do everything in your power to destroy us or put us in our place. Does that answer your question to your satisfaction, professor?
ANNE
I didn't mean to upset you.
ME
You asked me an upsetting question.
ANNE
I only wanted to talk about your blogs. I wasn't trying to push your buttons or anything.
ME
That's exactly what I mean.
ANNE
I don't under -
ME
Has it ever crossed your mind that the reason why I don't say that on my blog is not because I can't but because I choose not to?
ANNE
. . .
ME
Did you ever consider that maybe it hurts me to think about this, let alone talk about it, or put it up on the internet where every random jackass with a keyboard and an opinion can pop off at the mouth with the most ignorant, hateful shit they can come up with?
ANNE
. . .
ME
What authority entitled you to ask me to reopen wounds that have yet to heal? And for what? Your intellectual stimulation? For your fucking amusement?
(Smashing my cup and saucer to pieces)
This is my fucking life!
ANNE
OK, calm down.
ME
Fuck you! Let some paparazzi asshole jump in your face one too many times and see how calm you'll be.
(Leaving Anne . . . Storming to my bedroom . . . Slamming door)
ANNE
. . .
ME
(Finding hidden box . . . Peeking inside . . . Cocooning contents in my hands . . . Shaking while trying not to scream or cry . . . Putting it back in the box . . . Hiding the box in a new place . . . Going to sleep)
ANNE
(Scooping up broken teacup . . . Tossing it into the trash . . . Roaming the apartment . . . Examining the Black bookshelf . . . Plucking books off that shelf . . . Flipping through them . . . Selecting a few . . . Reading them . . . Putting them back . . . Going to my door . . . Hesitating to knock . . . Disappearing)
ME
(Arriving)
ANNE
(Appearing out of nowhere reading a book . . . Taking off reading glasses)
Hey.
ME
You look scholarly today. What you been up to?
ANNE
Catching up on reading.
ME
That's good. What you been reading?
ANNE
Oh, this and that.
ME
Like what? Books? Magazines? Newspapers?
ANNE
Books mostly. I've been reading some online articles too.
ME
Uh-huh.
ANNE
I, uh, came across your blog.
ME
Which one?
ANNE
First your blog-blog. Then I saw your LiveJournal.
ME
Mm-hm.
ANNE
. . .
ME
What?
ANNE
Some of the things I read were, um, could be considered, uh, controversial.
ME
Oh, Lord. You read the racism posts didn't you?
ANNE
It was kinda hard not to. You write about it a lot.
ME
Uh-huh.
ANNE
I'm – why didn't you say anything?
ME
About what?
ANNE
What you were writing about.
ME
Guess it never came up.
ANNE
You could've mentioned it at some point.
ME
Uh, there's never really a good time to talk about that kinda stuff.
ANNE
(Bringing out coffee or tea from nowhere . . . Arranging on table nearby . . . Pouring two cups)
OK, fine. It's come up now, so let's talk about it now.
ME
. . .
ANNE
Alright, so . . .
ME
So.
ANNE
I read your blogs.
ME
Uh, uh-huh.
ANNE
You say a lot of interesting things about race and – what was the word? - intersectionality, y'know, your experiences being both Black and female.
ME
Mm-hm.
ANNE
I read just about everything.
ME
Uh-huh.
ANNE
This would be a lot easier if you actually said something.
ME
I don't have anything to say.
ANNE
(Pouring more coffee)
Well . . . I beg to differ. You put a lot of time into writing some powerful, eloquent pieces about how you think and feel about racism. I think you have quite a lot to say and I would like to hear it. I'd like to discuss that with you.
ME
(Staring at my cup)
It's not exactly a topic for polite conversation, Anne.
ANNE
No, but I'd hope we are beyond polite conversation. I mean, you made me piss myself laughing so that has to count for something.
ME
(Chuckling)
OK. What'd you wanna discuss?
ANNE
I read everything you wrote. More than once, actually.
ME
(Wary)
Uh-huh.
ANNE
You have some pretty . . . sharp criticisms of White people.
ME
(Tense)
Uh-huh.
ANNE
No, no, it's not – I know where you think I'm going with this, but that's not what I – I'm not – I'm not going to say what you expect me to say.
ME
(Skeptical)
OK . . .
ANNE
Well . . . I'm reading what you wrote. Over and over again, and it's like . . . I dunno. You're being really honest about the things you see and how people treat you as a Black woman and everything. But at the same time, it feels like you're hiding what's really happening. You're not getting at the root of what really bothers you about us – White people, I mean. You talk around it, you hint at it, you slip it under the radar, but you never just come out and say it.
ME
Is that the thrust of your critique, professor?
ANNE
I wouldn't call it a critique, but – yeah, that's my main issue with it. A lot more people would be on board with you if you just said what it was don't you think?
ME
Maybe.
ANNE
Seriously, what is it? What are you not saying?
ME
(Thinking)
If I had to say it in a few words . . .
ANNE
Mm-hm.
ME
If I had to say it in a few words, I would say that you don't see us as people. I don't mean you don't see as equal to you. I mean literally not human. I don't know what you think we are – animals, aliens, spirits – whatever it is, it ain't human. I guess it's no accident y'all used to call us spooks. It's like . . . part of the physics of the world you live in. One plus one is two. What goes up must come down. And Black people aren't people.
ANNE
. . . I don't feel – I don't think that way.
ME
Of course you don't. That's what's fucked up about it. You don't have to. You just do it.
ANNE
I don't know what you're talking about.
ME
It's like our thoughts, our feelings, our experiences . . . the human things about us – they just don't register. Like it's not real. You only notice how we function in your life. We're only what you can use us for, not people with our own talents, our own dreams, virtues and vices and joys and sorrows and all those other things that make a person a person. Even when I'm saying it to you the way I say it now, it doesn't sink in. You ignore it, you dismiss it, you deny it, you do everything but accept it. And when you're forced to see us, you do everything in your power to destroy us or put us in our place. Does that answer your question to your satisfaction, professor?
ANNE
I didn't mean to upset you.
ME
You asked me an upsetting question.
ANNE
I only wanted to talk about your blogs. I wasn't trying to push your buttons or anything.
ME
That's exactly what I mean.
ANNE
I don't under -
ME
Has it ever crossed your mind that the reason why I don't say that on my blog is not because I can't but because I choose not to?
ANNE
. . .
ME
Did you ever consider that maybe it hurts me to think about this, let alone talk about it, or put it up on the internet where every random jackass with a keyboard and an opinion can pop off at the mouth with the most ignorant, hateful shit they can come up with?
ANNE
. . .
ME
What authority entitled you to ask me to reopen wounds that have yet to heal? And for what? Your intellectual stimulation? For your fucking amusement?
(Smashing my cup and saucer to pieces)
This is my fucking life!
ANNE
OK, calm down.
ME
Fuck you! Let some paparazzi asshole jump in your face one too many times and see how calm you'll be.
(Leaving Anne . . . Storming to my bedroom . . . Slamming door)
ANNE
. . .
ME
(Finding hidden box . . . Peeking inside . . . Cocooning contents in my hands . . . Shaking while trying not to scream or cry . . . Putting it back in the box . . . Hiding the box in a new place . . . Going to sleep)
ANNE
(Scooping up broken teacup . . . Tossing it into the trash . . . Roaming the apartment . . . Examining the Black bookshelf . . . Plucking books off that shelf . . . Flipping through them . . . Selecting a few . . . Reading them . . . Putting them back . . . Going to my door . . . Hesitating to knock . . . Disappearing)
We are teachers. We are tokens. We are the people who assuage fears. When we say what they like, we make white people feel good about being white. When we say something they dislike, we are angry and confrontational. We are rarely made to feel good about who we are as human beings. The problem is that we have no individual identity. We are a block, a mass of people. It's hard to see humanity in a block of something. If we do break out of this mass, we're "exceptions".
So, I’m 24, White and European. All of these traits are important, I think, in what I would like to tell you. I’ve tried to sum up my ideas into something coherent and structured, but have been utterly incompetent to do so. It’s one of those moments where language is still an obstacle for me and the last thing I want is to seem patronizing.
So, let me just say that I’m floored by some of the things you speak about in your posts. There are some situations that you had to live through that I’ve never witnessed, or heard about.
And perhaps I’ve been sheltered, or perhaps my Black friends feel they can’t talk about it because I’m White and wouldn’t understand, or perhaps it’s because racism is less “head-on” here than it seems to be in the US. I didn’t know that such states of mind still existed in what we pretend are “developed countries”.
There are so many things I would like to say, so many things I’d like to understand better. But how can I do it if asking the question is an insult? How am I supposed to learn if no one will teach me? What can I do if my interest in starting a friendship is met with skepticism and distrust right from the beginning? How can I make someone understand that I'm actually curious about their personality, their intelligence, their feelings and their culture when they're convinced I'm just curious about the "thing" in front of me?
Some White people feel they're seen as part of a mass, too.
In the meantime, let me tell you this: even if I don’t actually know you, to me you are a person and, for the abuse you have to bear every day, my heart goes out to you.
From my understanding, the act of asking the question is not, in and of itself, an insult. The insult is derived from the following:
a) We (i.e. well-meaning white people) expect - even feel like we deserve - an answer, even from a relative stranger,
b) We ask without any awareness of the emotional cost to the people from whom we expect that answer. When we come from a place of privilege, it's difficult for us to even have any inkling of what that cost entails. This just substantiates the idea that we don't see POC as real people, if we can so easily discount their feelings.
Which is why we listen. And try to learn. We're not entitled to ask questions and expect answers, but when someone gives us an answer freely, unasked, we better damn well pay attention.
I do NOT speak for afro_dyte. All of the words here are mine and mine alone.
1. Mercurychkita is correct that asking strangers these questions is a problem. I do not know you. You have not established a foundation or relationship built out of trust so why should I answer your questions? This is the first problem. So many white people ask people of color they do not have a relationship with questions. Think of someone walking up to you on the street, picking up some physical characteristic of yours and then bombarding you while you are busy, frustrated, upset or relaxing? This happens to POC all the time.
2. How are you supposed to know if someone doesn't teach you? My first thought is OMG. The second thought is: How do you think POC learn about you? We learn by being forced to learn your culture to navigate life. We spend so much time learning about you, but you can't learn anything about us on your own? With the internet around? With libraries available? Possibly with people of color you have a long, and trusting relationship with? If you can't step out of your comfort zone to learn anything about my culture, what motivation do I have to teach you? Why should I bother? Also, cultures are diverse. My identity as a black person is greatly different than another black person's identity.
3. Of course your interest for a relationship is met with skepticism and distrust. I believe Tim Wise (Google him, PLEASE), a white ally in the fight against racism, says that it's amazing that people of color even bother trying to form relationships with white people. We have a lot to lose. We've been burned a lot. Think of an abuse victim trying to have a relationship with their abuser. Guess what? There's going to be mistrust. Racism is abuse and people of color are the victims. You say, "but I didn't do anything?" You have a privilege being white. It is not always your fault you have this privilege (just as it is not my fault I am able-bodied). It is something you have to work to level. From your speech here, I'm not sure you understand how to go about leveling that field.
4. How can I make someone understand that I'm actually curious about their personality, their intelligence, their feelings and their culture when they're convinced I'm just curious about the "thing" in front of me? The wording of this is highly problematic. It sounds as if you view us as a science experiment. You may not mean it that way. If you work to step out of your comfort zone and educate yourself, we feel a lot less like we're being put on display or observed so you can prod us for answers to your questions. Also, how do you make ANYONE understand that you want to be their friend? This is the problem. It seems as if we are an "Other" to you.
One last thing. I do not speak for your friends of color, but you come off pretty clueless about race and/or racism. I have white acquaintances in which I do not bother talking about race. It would be pointless and would leave me frustrated and with a headache.
I'd start with reading Peggy McIntosh and Tim Wise. That's all the educating I'm doing.
There are so many things I would like to say, so many things I’d like to understand better.
Use Mr Goddamn Google. And remember all the time that you are not necessarily entitled to what you are learning.
Sometimes the best way to learn is to shut up and stop whinging about how the Magical Black People are telling you everything you think you're entitled to know about their lives. Because clearly, you really haven't been paying attention to anything
Sorry,
I was not defending “Anne” in my discourse, not at all. I don’t think I have the right to come to someone and ask him flat out a private question, and actually expect him to give me an answer. I wouldn’t do that, to anybody.
I’m not whining about the “big meanie PoC (I had to look that one up, actually) being mean to me” either. I thought it was important to state where I was coming from to give you an idea of how much differently things can be seen, half a world away. I’m not talking for all Europe, but only for what I see in my country.
Discrimination here isn’t directed primarily to the PoC. It generally bases itself on the religion. The first people really demeaned in the capital of my country are the Muslin ones. I’ve rarely heard “Yeah, well, he’s Black”. I’ve heard plenty of “Yeah, well, he’s Moroccan/Tunisian/Turkish.” It’s not worse, but it’s no less awful.
Then, there is the other discrimination, concerning absolutely everybody on the territory: my country is being ripped in two for a question of language. 10 million people speaking three different languages, who can’t seem to be able to live together anymore. When I say I’m French-speaking in some parts of my country, I’m just seen as someone not worth breathing the same air. (“Oh, well, he’s Flemish/Walloon, what did you expect? You can’t teach them anything.”)
Then there is the problem of the nazi philosophy making its come back all through Europe, and of the gangs of skinheads going out at night to beat up some Jew, or some Gay, or some PoC, or anybody getting in the way.
Then there is the racism to PoC, as is there everywhere else.
What I’m trying to say here (and obviously making an awful job of it) is racism to PoC hasn’t shaped the society I live in as it seems to have in other parts of the world. You grew up reading McIntosh, and Wise, and learning about slavery and color churches and Martin Luther King. I grew up learning about the Anschluss, and Hitler, and the camps, and Friedrich Nietzsche. We don’t have the same History, we don’t have the same hates at the same levels.
When I think about discrimination, I don’t think first and foremost about skin color. I think about different cultures. That’s what makes the clash here. That’s why I was talking about learning about someone’s culture. I’m very aware one Black person doesn’t have the same background as another one, just the same as White, or Asian or Indian-American people can’t be seen as “groups”.
Also, as I said, I’m 24. I’m still a student and I spend my days at the Uni, where my classes are definitely not White in majority. Most of the people I’ve spent the last six years with don’t even have the same nationality as I do. We don’t talk about it, because it doesn’t matter to us. They’re just my friends. Same as I don’t ask questions to PoC, because skin color doesn’t matter to me. That’s why I was wondering how to ask such a question. I’ve never had to, it’s new to me.
And by intervening, I was only trying to express my disgust at the people who think that the skin color changes anything for a human being. I was trying to express my disgust that there actually are some people seeing PoC as science projects, as less than human, as lacking emotions. So I want to apologize if I appeared clueless, or insensitive.
And I’ll start by reading Peggy McIntosh and Sam Wise, too.
Obviously, I worded my post really wrong, because there are some things that were pointed out that I really didn’t mean the way they were understood.
I don’t think I have the right to come to someone and ask him flat out a private question, and actually expect him to give me an answer. I wouldn’t do that, to anybody.
Except that's exactly what you did here:There are so many things I would like to say, so many things I’d like to understand better. But how can I do it if asking the question is an insult? How am I supposed to learn if no one will teach me? What can I do if my interest in starting a friendship is met with skepticism and distrust right from the beginning? How can I make someone understand that I'm actually curious about their personality, their intelligence, their feelings and their culture when they're convinced I'm just curious about the "thing" in front of me?
Also, you do realize it's possible to know about Wise, McIntosh, Neitzsche and Hitler right? I mean none of those names are new.
No offense, but the fact that you site violence towards people of color in your post should tell you all you need to know about racism where you live.
Also, how would you know how your friends of color feel if you've never talked to them about being people of color? How do you know it doesn't matter to them? You're doing a lot of assuming that you know the thoughts of your friends. Earlier you admitted that: And perhaps I’ve been sheltered, or perhaps my Black friends feel they can’t talk about it because I’m White and wouldn’t understand, or perhaps it’s because racism is less “head-on” here than it seems to be in the US. So you don't really know anything about their feelings on the subject at all, do you? I'd also like to say that subtle racism is a much more difficult and crazy beast than blunt racism. With blunt racism, you can condemn, avoid and move on. With subtle racism, you are questioning actions and words all the time.
I'm going to do some major assuming myself here, but because you gave a description of yourself, I'm going with the idea that you don't personally know afro_dyte, yet you felt comfortable asking her questions you haven't even asked your friends of color? Does this make sense to you?
If this: And by intervening, I was only trying to express my disgust at the people who think that the skin color changes anything for a human being. I was trying to express my disgust that there actually are some people seeing PoC as science projects, as less than human, as lacking emotions. So I want to apologize if I appeared clueless, or insensitive. was your goal then you should have left off this whole section: There are so many things I would like to say, so many things I’d like to understand better. But how can I do it if asking the question is an insult? How am I supposed to learn if no one will teach me? What can I do if my interest in starting a friendship is met with skepticism and distrust right from the beginning? How can I make someone understand that I'm actually curious about their personality, their intelligence, their feelings and their culture when they're convinced I'm just curious about the "thing" in front of me?
No, really, you're defending Anne in so many ways and you're just too ignorant to see it.
racism to PoC hasn’t shaped the society I live in as it seems to have in other parts of the world. You grew up reading McIntosh, and Wise, and learning about slavery and color churches and Martin Luther King. I grew up learning about the Anschluss, and Hitler, and the camps, and Friedrich Nietzsche. We don’t have the same History, we don’t have the same hates at the same levels.
I'm going to assume that you are talking about living in Belgium?
Belgium has plenty of history with racism and POC, King Leopold will be eternally famous.
NUH-UH!!!!
This is some ignorant bullshit right here.
Let me put this very plainly. You, as a White person, are taught to be racist every waking moment of your life. You have to unlearn racism. You have to make the effort to not be racist. It is your job to seek out ways to keep from hurting the people you live, work, and play with. It is not their responsibility to teach you how to be a decent human being.
And the 3/5 compromise just kept coming to mind when I read this.
Have I mentioned lately that you rock? 'Cause you do.
"Anne" and I are working some things out right now, but I think we're making progress. She read the comments to this thread at Stuff White People Do, and she told me she wanted to find out where some of those posters lived and punch them in the mouth. I was very gratified to hear her say that.
But most of the time we talk about pretty intense stuff like Judaism and mysticism and such. We both share a deep interest in the ecstatic expressions of religious experience. We're thinking about signing up for a Tantric sex class soon.
Do you mind if I link this?
*Applauding*
Re: *Applauding*